Curse

against · Dec 23, 2005, 05:54 AM // 05:54

The book trick is so homogay. Efficiency is overrated anyway! Why make it easier to kill mobs and make the task of healing less complicated? Heck, we should boycott Res Spells and Signets...SKILLS ALL TOGETHER! That would be an awesome challenge. FoW with empty skill bar. Go with your Presear armor and "Starter" Weapons.

Racthoh · Dec 23, 2005, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by against

The book trick is so homogay. Efficiency is overrated anyway! Why make it easier to kill mobs and make the task of healing less complicated? Heck, we should boycott Res Spells and Signets...SKILLS ALL TOGETHER! That would be an awesome challenge. FoW with empty skill bar. Go with your Presear armor and "Starter" Weapons.

I'm going to assume this response is brimming with sarcasm so prehaps I'll elaborate more on the issue.

"Efficiency" as it has been put can be achieved with a little effort. Scratch that, less effort. The cause of many problems when aggroing is that fellow allies are too close to the main warrior thus attracting the mobs attention to the soft targets instead. However, should your squishes just stand still (that's right, don't do ANYTHING until aggro has been achieved) you can get that same desired result. Well, except that now your warrior can build adrenaline faster to use such tanking tools as Watch Yourself, Defy Pain, and Bonetti's Defense much faster than if they were simply relying on pure damage to build adrenaline.

The healing task becomes more complicated because the warrior is without a shield (unless your warrior is using a hammer but they are probably bringing their own form of AL boosting or damage reduction skill with them). As such, you are healing your warrior far more often than mine since that extra 16 AL and possibly up to -4 less damage from shield bonus is taken into account. Do you know how quickly an unprepared warrior can drop from those groups around the Tower of Strength? Groups with 4 Abyssals and 2 Shadow Mesmers, not a pretty site for the uninformed. Also, since the healing task is apparently so much less complicated, why not boycott the res spells? What need do you have for them if two monks apparently only need to focus on one target? Pre-searing armour? Sure, nothing else is being hit anyway. Then again, if my group simply consists of a warrior that knows what aggro is along with the rest of my informed party we could achieve the exact same desired result.

Edit: Yahoo... 1500th post.

Sk8tborderx · Dec 24, 2005, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I have done over 500 FoW runs and never got bored with it but I have stopped going down into FoW now because I am sick and tired of everyone insisting on using the book trick. Every time I would do a FoW clearing run I would try to change something with what I did to make it faster and better, I always formed my own groups because I do things a lot differently than most because it has been proven more effective time and time again. The book trick has now got all of these new players brainwashed into thinking it is the most effective way at clearing or getting to the forgemaster. Another problem I have is that no one wants to listen, even if they have never done it without the book trick they still refuse to listen. Myself and many others have stopped going to FoW because no one wants to use different builds/strategies and are stuck on the cookie cutter builds/strategies. The book trick is not in any way helping people become better players, in fact it is making them worse because it is stopping creativity with group builds/skills/strategies.

Fire Childe · Dec 25, 2005, 02:00 AM // 02:00

i actually wish anet would fix stuff like this. I used to UW and fissure alot in may/june/july and ive never heard of this trick. back then we set up a pull either by using corner blocking (easier in underworld, simply because there are more 'corners') or by using a single souped up, protected player to draw all the aggro before the rest of the party moved in for the kill.

when you said it was the same as the gear trick, i instantly knew what you meant because i recently started playing GW again (since i have time off from work over christmas). there isnt a single group that goes into sorrow's furnace that doesnt abuse gladiator's defence and gear holding. and it is kind of...well...studid. the amount of groups that wipe before even getting into the furnace goes to show how incapable many GW players are of setting up a pull, without having a cog to do the work for them. since they invariably use 1 of these cookie cutter builds:

1) stanced based tactics warrior with gladiator's defence
2) minion master necromancer
3) spiteful spirit necromancer
4) echo meteor shower elementalist

that wouldnt be such a bad thing if not for the fact that so many PVE players appear to be without a brain. no thought is put into why you are doing something. why it is important to stay out of the aggro circle of the character drawing aggro when a gear isnt available. people just dont think about it or how the AI works. what sets it off.

and when they screw up and wipe, instead of asking themselves 'well, what went wrong? what can we do to not make that happen in future?' the most immediate inclination for many puggers is to just leave and hopefully find another party where everyone else wont make the same mistake.

this is idiotic and thoughtless. nothing is learned. no brains are exercised. new players who come into this game (and old ones returning) have and will get called 'newbs' because we dropped the cog in the middle of a game. i didnt even know why i was supposed to be holding one until the insults came flying by. and the irony of this is that myself and the people i play with have run many successful builds in the underworld and fissure, nearly completing both. and we have done so with people who have never played either area before. it just goes to show that all you need is to have your wits about you. our strategy, pull setup and team builds have been published on this forum and on gwonline's forum.

it also raises the issue of why people even bother to play fissure and sorrow's furnace and the answer is always loot. nearly everyone in PVE doesnt give a fig whether these areas are enjoyable or not, merely what they can get out of it in monetary terms. if anet ever fixes the gear exploit, there will more than likely be an outcry from farmers everywhere, about why they cannot get green items and shards at the rate they used to.

of course, you could put some thought into it and try to design a viable team build for this purpose, but most dont seem to play this game to think. merely to farm.

i noticed when people found out icy dragon swords in mineral springs, it took all of 1 day before granite citadel was full of farmers using the exact cookie cutter builds everyone runs in the furnace. only this time alot of them wipe frequently because nobody ever thinks about creature aggro and pulling properly.

Sk8tborderx · Dec 25, 2005, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Fire Childe I agree with you 100%. The farmers out there that use the gear/keg/book trick do it because they want the drops the easiest and fastest way they can. But of course they are morons or else they would see that doing a 5 man run in GF/SF will get you the same amount of greens as an 8 man run because you can clear that much faster. And yes it is true, most of the farmers out there are just plain morons that have to rely on a "trick" so they can be successful. Most of these people usually have a lot of money and 15k or FoW armor and think that they are better than everyone else but when you talk to one of them you start to wonder where they left their brain at.

animeba · Dec 26, 2005, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Fire Childe I agree with you 100%. The farmers out there that use the gear/keg/book trick do it because they want the drops the easiest and fastest way they can. But of course they are morons or else they would see that doing a 5 man run in GF/SF will get you the same amount of greens as an 8 man run because you can clear that much faster. And yes it is true, most of the farmers out there are just plain morons that have to rely on a "trick" so they can be successful. Most of these people usually have a lot of money and 15k or FoW armor and think that they are better than everyone else but when you talk to one of them you start to wonder where they left their brain at.

Fow provides decent drops and a LOT of experience points. 5k Tower of Courage; 5k for Tower Clearning; 10k for Defend; 10k for Dryders; 10k for book. That's 40k total. You just can't match that kind of exp with SF. You only get is 8k for Oro.

Fow Armor has never been associated with uberness. Most of the fow armor wearer got it from ebay. So fow armor does not = extremely experienced warrior.

Sk8tborderx · Dec 26, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I in no way said people with FoW armor are good players. The majority of them just plain suck. There is a total of 11 quests in FoW so there is much more than 40k experience, if you do all the quests and kill every enemy you will leave with at least 115k experience points in one run. What I was trying to say is that the book/gear/keg trick encourages people to play at a lower level and complete what are otherwise difficult quests. It simply creates worse players because they never try to improve their build. I have noticed that a lot of players only do FoW because they suck in UW. Most people think that you need to be a stance tank to survive against bladed aatxes when that is completely false, I only take watch yourself and dolyak signet and lower their damage down to only 20. I go with a stance tank in the group sometimes and I always outlast them. Stance tanks are really overrated, they don't help your group at all, they do minimal damage, I use 2 skills to reduce damage and the rest are aimed at dealing it. I never go stance and still have yet for someone to complain simply because I don't take as much damage and deal a lot more than a stance tank does. I always get into groups that want to clear, groups will have a huge problem clearing with a stance tank because when you get to the chaos planes the warrior will be a main damage dealer because that is the mindblade spectres main weakness.

Pompeyfan · Dec 26, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Only used the book trick once - my regular party dosen't bother with it.

Y.T. · Dec 26, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thock

Good luck finding a warrior smart enough to get and hold aggro that isn’t in a guild/friends only group. I think the books title is "Aggro Control For Dummies." So many people have quit the game recently I'm lucky to find a tank with a vocabulary that consists of words with more than four letters. So unless I know the warrior, he is getting the book/gear/keg.

completely agree with u. but u forget to mention that u have to yell at them all the time that they're not supposed to drop it... but they'll ask u in next 5 min 'can i drop ---- book now?'

usually tanks think they control the aggro when they're running back to group with dosen skelly... and shortly after that they blame monks.... yes find better monk next time - the 1 that can heal when interrupted and with no energy or even better - when dead

book trick is extremely boring but it gives some stability to groups, 'cos good or even tolerable tanks are rarity and worth their weight in gold

scars of insanity · Dec 26, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Book trick? Never heard of it plz explain what it is. Is it the same thing as when i grab the master gear in SF and they all attack me?! if so where is the "book"
<---FoW newb lol only been 10 times never used book trick

Sk8tborderx · Dec 26, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Scars the book trick is basically doing the army of darkness quest and getting the unholy text. When the person with the text runs into aggro all the enemies only attack him. I would guess that either you went itno groups that died on "noob hill" or you got into groups that didn't want to use it.

killerklayton · Dec 27, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

i do fow very often with guild,we only go to get the armor but we never use book trick

Fire Childe · Dec 27, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

the thing is it isnt hard. underworld and fissure do not require crazy dexterity, micromanagement and 'skill' using the term loosely.

you just need to use your brain. my experience of pvp is very much like that too.

i used to run with underworld groups where half of them were puggers that had never played before. but we recruited carefully and made sure each one was willing to listen and go along with what we had in mind. sometimes you would even surprise yourself when one of those puggers suggests an idea for a build that is better than the one you are currently running.

the biggest problem with underworld is controlling aggro and keeping it onto 1 target. if you can do that efficiently and make sure your target doesnt die (or that enemies dont retarget after being knocked down or crippled) then you can go all the way and finish it if you have 10 hours to spare.

Most people who only learned how to use the book trick dont know what controlling aggro is and why you need to do it. they will brawl underworld and die in seconds. but this isnt a bad thing - we all make mistakes. the important thing is to learn from them. and it is such a simple thing to learn. you can do it in a few minutes of reading and about 10 minutes of trial runs.

my problem with the book trick stems from the fact that most people in the pve side of the game at least, have no desire to learn anything. merely to get rich quick by endlessly running the same build in the same area to farm the same old loot to sell for farmer armour. uhhh, i mean fissure armour.

QuixotesGhost · Dec 29, 2005, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

I never go stance and still have yet for someone to complain simply because I don't take as much damage and deal a lot more than a stance tank does. I always get into groups that want to clear, groups will have a huge problem clearing with a stance tank because when you get to the chaos planes the warrior will be a main damage dealer because that is the mindblade spectres main weakness.

I agree that stance tanks aren't needed in the UW. Seriously, all you need is a monk with a single copy of protective sprit, instead of wasting a whole characters bar with 8 different stances/self heals/armor boosters.

As far as the chaos planes... I don't know about you but my ranger and my warrior both get an absolutly insane amount of Clumsinesses stacked on them. The only reliable way I've found so far to deal damage to those guys is traps. How do you get past clumsiness?

Arduin · Dec 29, 2005, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by animeba

Fow provides decent drops and a LOT of experience points. 5k Tower of Courage; 5k for Tower Clearning; 10k for Defend; 10k for Dryders; 10k for book. That's 40k total. You just can't match that kind of exp with SF. You only get is 8k for Oro.

Plz explain me the usefulness of getting exp points?! I've been playing GW from it's release, cleared the whole map with my primary (ranger) character, got all her skills and hoarded 1M+ exp. Then some Solo-monk comes rushin in, telling me she got 3M+ exp! Is this making her character any better compared to mine, has she accomplished more? As long as A-net doesn't give an option to redeem the exp (other than skill points (imo = lame)) it really isn't of any use to me, other than bragging about it. Personally, my goal is to have completed every quest in PvE for my prim. character, with SF already done, and FOW and UW still having some left to finish. The exp I will gain isn't the reward, the completion of that particular tough quest is.

To get back to the subject, me and my guildie have been doing FOW for the last few weeks now, playing as monks, with the book-trick, with PUG's, basically because players are just too stubborn to listen to our advice. Without the book, it just isnt possible to keep all those lunatics alive. I don't mind bringing first-timers, as long as they pay attention to our directions. But basically, half of them just cant speak/understand proper english, or choose not to do so (i'm playing on the european server btw). So gently asking---> flaming about not attacking all the mobs in sight (wars), not trapping the hell out of no-one because the target is miles away (ranger), nuking a single target in stead of the huge mob making shis-kebab of our squishies (eles), etc etc etc doesn't help anything. Therefore I surely will choose to get the book, simply because I hate to so my team obliberated by those 7-8 Shadow Beast thingies.

Don't get me wrong though, I've done some runs without the book, making it a bit harder, especially after 2-3 peeps threatening to leave cause they would't venture further into FOW without the book. Without the book it surely is more fun for the book-carrier and the supporting monks, but just not suitable for a random PUG on our server...

Grz

Fire Childe · Dec 30, 2005, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

To get back to the subject, me and my guildie have been doing FOW for the last few weeks now, playing as monks, with the book-trick, with PUG's, basically because players are just too stubborn to listen to our advice. Without the book, it just isnt possible to keep all those lunatics alive. I don't mind bringing first-timers, as long as they pay attention to our directions.

This isnt exactly an adequate excuse. I have run many groups with pick up players for both Underworld and Fissure before the book was even added to Fissure. If you are organised and recruit with the intention of completing a working team build for these areas + explain why you are doing things the way you are (for the benefit of those pick up players not in the know) then there is rarely a problem. This does of course mean that you spend 30 to 45 minutes in ToA actually preparing people in your team for what is going to happen. But I have always found that preferable to a long haul run where someone does something silly and gets the entire group killed, 4 hours in.

With vent this is very quick and easy and you can fill in team members along the way. Back in June many of us didnt have vent so we explained everything by typing it up before every encounter.

All you need for a successful party in Fissure is organisation. you dont even really need dedicated healers in Fissure if you are careful and you build around them. The great thing about learning how to set up pulls properly without the book, is that you can use this tactic in every single area of the game. regardless or whether there is a book or gear available or not. Therefore, by not using the book, alot of players at least give themselves the chance of learning a little bit about how the AI works. And this knowledge can be used to make it easier to play every other area in the game.

I cannot see how this can ever be a bad thing.

Sk8tborderx · Dec 30, 2005, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

As far as the chaos planes... I don't know about you but my ranger and my warrior both get an absolutly insane amount of Clumsinesses stacked on them. The only reliable way I've found so far to deal damage to those guys is traps. How do you get past clumsiness?

I always take 2-3 monks, all of them are mo/me with arcane echo and spellbreaker. If I take 3 monks then it is usually a bond/barrier monk.

<>Rando<> · Feb 15, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Childe

my problem with the book trick stems from the fact that most people in the pve side of the game at least, have no desire to learn anything. merely to get rich quick by endlessly running the same build in the same area to farm the same old loot to sell for farmer armour. uhhh, i mean fissure armour.

I agree 100%

In my experience 95% of people in the pve side of the game react in very negative ways when people offer help or try to teach them something new.

As for my guild and I, we have never used the book trick, it is overated and pointless. With us if the aggro is ever lost (which 99% of the time it is never lost) there is little affect to the group as a whole. We simply notice the aggro has been lost and adapt to it. And in some cases dont even bother to fix it, seeing that 3 of the 4 people out of our team are able to play the tanking role if ever needed.

Also in reponse to the people who only use the book trick and leave any group that does not use it, good for them, I am glad I do not have to play with such norrow minded people. And if I ever do, go ahead and leave we are a 4 man group anyway and loosing 1 person will not effect us. We have gone 200 plus times and around 20 of those times we have lost some one to connection problems or family things or what ever and are only ever effected if I leave (being the bonder hurts the team greatly).

So pretty much I am just saying is, people try to live a little and try something new. And if you do not like what you get out off it return to your normal ways, but at least you have tried something new and are a little wisher and more experienced person because of it.

Shaman Priest (aka High Primarch)

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Most of PuGs I'm in these days end up using book... people know it's good and so they use it, and then they adjust their playstyle accordingly -> not worrying about leaving room for aggro, etc. Then when they try without book *splat*

And so the cycle continues.

I don't like the book, but I can't complain too loud about PuGs... it's hard enough to find them as it is.

{IceFire} · Feb 15, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

ive almost never been in a pug that could control aggroe. when you have a competent tank, no. but its pretty necessary for a non-guild group, IMO